well i agree, as i am a druid and am in ovate, and bardic training to be a druidic priestess, that totally sucks, cause bards are our storytellers, our musicians,etc. ok i am mad too and thanks for the info, now that i know this i will think before i go to any gathering such as this.
thanx

I'm sorry you feel that way, Knower of the Oak. You know where we stand, you know what we face. The Bardic Competition was only open to members of the event last year as well, but you may not have been aware of that. It's too late to change it this year, but I'll keep your thoughts in mind for Magickal Winter Weekend IV.

Bright Blessings,
Lea
Vice-Chair, MWW III

My first post on this tribe, into the fire.

I have never attended this event, and now I can't say I ever plan to. Loss of revenue for them.

In comparison: I attend and perform at several Bellydance festivals every year. Some, like Tribal fest, have upto 40 performers/troupes a showcase, and we all get in free the day of our performance. If you dance Saturday, admission is free, if you attend Sunday you pay to get in. If you are a worksop instructor (ie repected teacher) you attend the entire event for free.

Just thought we could accknowlege "scared hospitality" being practiced outside the pagan community, sad it's not happening within accross the board. I'm a coordinator for Sacramento's Midsummer Celtic Faery Festival as well. It's a free admission event so performers perform for free. Unforunately they must purchase alcoholic drinks inside the VFW bar, it can't be helped per our contract with VFW. However, we will provide H2O bottles and food to our performers, as well as free merch space to sell CD's. And they can solicit the crowd of donations. Anything else besides our excellent PA and raised stage I should pass on to the entertainment coordinator to consider?

Congratulations "Knower"... your anger is succeeding in shutting down something that could be good...

I agree in theory regarding the $$... but to make it a public snit is not right... remember you get what you give...

> It seems that every single Pagan event up here in the Pacific Northwest is dominated by the vendors

The time spent on developing programming in MWW (I'm on the convention committee) far outweighs the time in working on vendors.

> so its the whole New Ager's "Lets make money off of peoples spirituality".

Not being a New Ager, II don't think that way myself.

In fact, every member of the convention committee buys a membership in order to try to make the convention work. It's called Committment.

> At some of these events the vendors actually out number the guest.

This isn't 'some of these' events. Neither of the past two MWW events were vendor-heavy, and the ratio, based on personal observation, is more like 20 to 1.

> There is way to much focus placed on the vendors and not enough on content.

How is that, specifically? The time spent on developing programming in MWW (I'm on the convention committee) far outweighs the time in working on vendors. In fact, if you will go to the website magickalwinterweekend.org/ you will see the number of vendors is capped.

> I realize these events need to make money in order to put on these events

Yes, it does. You have to pay your bills, else your word becomes trash. If there ever is a surplus (and, OBTW, non-profit organizations, for that's what MWW is, a registered Oregon not-for-profit) it isn't a profit; non profits never make a profit. Any surplus over and above paying bills goes to repay debt or is the seed corn for next year (you don't eat your seed corn if you want to have a crop next year).

> but folks ain't going to shell out $40 to $50 bucks and travel long distances to go to a glorified vending bazaar.

Which is why MWW spends so much time developing programming.

magickalwinterweekend.org

> There is way to much focus placed on the vendors and not enough on content.

At last year's MWW, there were eight (8) programming tracks, with a total of 65 programming events, using hotel rooms for which the committee paid dearly.

How this could be perceived as 'not enough focus on content' staggers me.

I was going to apologize for going off but after reading that the MWW committee considers those of the Bardic tradition as to be too much of a bother I don't know. I noticed the offending words of charging the performers $25 to stick around after their performance was quickly removed from MWW's website though. If you believe you was justified asking the performers to pay for a pass why did you remove it? My bitterness on this goes back to last years event when while running around playing proper host watching Matt's kid why he tried to enjoy the event a meeting was held with some of the guest. Supposedly they was complaining about the music and some of the committee decided that the musician were to much of a bother and shouldn't have it the next year. I was approach by a committee member after words and told this. I was mad. I went around and asked folks what they thought of the music and they all said they enjoyed it. I was puzzled. Then one of the committee members (name left unsaid) who actually enjoyed the Tea Caddies came to me and said "Gypsy it was mainly the drummers who complained. Most everyone else enjoyed it." I was like really. During the show at one point I was sitting next to Mike Nichols, one of are two great guest speakers we had. At one point he had leaned over to me and said "It makes me feel good to see the young folks showing a interest in the old folk music." Mike was truly enjoying the music. I told him Matt would be back the next day and maybe I can get him to bring his guitar and you two could play together. He was like he would love that. Unfortunately Matt had his son in tow and forgot his guitar. Later the next day Mike stopped me and thank me for the great show. I said thank you but unfortunately some didn't feel the same way and they are talking about cutting out the music. That they rather have a drum circle. He said, "Thats ashame. Not all us Pagans care to hear only a drum beat."

What ticks me off is as soon as folks had started complaining about the music program during the meeting someone should had said well as the music coordinator Gypsy really should be here to hear this and be allowed the opportunity to address these complaints. Someone should go find him." But they didn't. They took the complaints, made a somewhat semi decision not to have music in the future without even consulting me. That was very very poor etiquette.

When Kina heard of the complaints she was very very hurt. Matt told me later they had actually turned down a paying gig to be there. He said Kina really really wanted to be part of the event. Kina is Wiccan, Matt follows the Bardic tradition. Both are your traditional musicians, storytellers & satirist and love to play Old Time, Folk & Bluegrass. This is a rich music whose roots can be traced back to the old Pagan Folk Music of the British Isle thanks to a lot of the Scots-Irish of the Appalachians Mountains for bringing it over & preserving it.

I'll admit I snapped and should had confronted Drumwench privately and allowed her a chance to address the complaint before dragging it into a public forum and for that I apologized. That was poor etiquette on my part. I was not aware that she was having the same problems I did with this very stubborn committee.

I realized afterwards how harsh & undiplomatic I came across and begin calling my musician friends on the phone who all identify themselves as Bards to ask them their opinion and how could I get my point across in a lest harsh and hostile manner. One of my friends spends nearly 9 months out of the year traveling the country living out of her van performing at coffee shops, bars & taverns, music festivals & Pagan events. She struggles to make ends meet cause she is a full time musician. She was once asked to perform at a Pagan Pride event back in New York. She lives in the Puget Sounds (Did I spell that right?) in Washington. Pagan Pride is a free event so they didn't have the funds to pay her or fly her there. She literally took her guitar into Seattle, opened it up on the streets and played to raise the gas & food money to get to New York. When she got there the Pagan Pride organizer offered the hospitality of their couch to sleep on. It wasn't much, but it showed she was appreciated. She spent more money getting there than she made selling CDs at the actual event. After words the PP coordinator passed a hat among their volunteers and raised enough money to fill her tank 3 times and sent her off with some home made food. She still had to stop along the way to play on street corners for gas to get back to Washington. Would she play for them again? She saids yes cause they showed her proper hospitality even though it cost her money to get there and back. After viewing the MWW site herself she agreed she would not play for MWW. But she said; Realize that that is the opinion of a musician, and that you might want to get the opinion of one at the business end to better get your point across. I thought but I am at the business end of the music scene and they aren't listening. I thought to myself, who do I know that is a successful promoter whom they would be familiar with and whose opinion they may respect. I instantly thought of my friend & fellow Druidess Kelly. For those who don't know who she is, Kelly is one of the three co-producers and founders of the very very successful Faerieworld Festival held in Oregon and Faeriecon International held back east. She is also one of the co-founders of the band Woodlands. They by the way are awesome. Give them a listen. She is also a practicing Druidess & Bard and a mother.

Though I may not always agree with some of her overly zealous fans I have the up most respect for this young lass's wisdom & knowledge so I went to her with my frustration and requested her wise counsel. She went and viewed the original thread here and the site of the offending words that got me so riled up to begin with which have since been removed. She was going to respond here but Drumwench had already gone to one of her tribes and complained about my complaint so she responded there instead. She contacted me back and told me she agreed with me and totally understood why I was upset. Told me she had responded and gave me permission to repost her's and her husband's post here. Below is that post.

(Kelly's Post)
well, as an organizer and producer of many many events, i can relate somewhat to all sides here. i am also a musician and i don't perform for free at events that charge an admission and use my band's name to sell tickets, period. proper energy exchange is crucial for healthy community. poverty consciousness will get you no where when trying to manifest abundance. if you want performers to provide entertainment to your audience whom you sold tickets to, you must offer them something in exchange that is honoring the gift they bring. the frame of mind that says offering them a place to share their music is enough, is exploitive and a disrespect. free passes to the event would be the minimal offering accepted i would say. offer whatever you can afford to offer, and then a bit more. that is the bardic law of hospitality in a nutshell. and such energetic generosity should be considered an investment in eventual success.

~

i was made aware of this issue when asked my opinion on proper performer/producer etiquette from a very sad and frustrated veteran of the music and pagan festie scene.....

~

"Now there is a gentleman on a huge tribe that has probably hung me in effigy in his backyard and is posting that our event is money-hungry, greedy and should be avoided at all costs!"

" i have been justly, and publicly, condemned to Dante's seventh level of hell. What would you do??"

first, i would re-read his "rant" so that you would see that the statements you claim he is making about you and your event, are not necessarily there. i would not take this personally, but rather examine the issue from a business perspective and ask yourself if the practice in question is truly ethical, and if it isn't, change it.

~

*Kelly's final post on the subject.*

i do understand all points you just made here.....it sounded to me like knower of the oak had felt he had exhausted his efforts to be heard, that he was tired of arguing over something that seemed so obvious to him, and he was looking to see if the greater community outside of the smaller argument, would hear what he was saying...
either way, it sucks to have this stuff aired out publicly, i completely understand. i have been through the ringer with internet public attack, it's hell.
at least he did not use any names or attack anyone personally, that is a level of disrespect i would not wish on anyone, having endured insane amounts of slander myself.
that said, we pay that amount for the smallest of acts, year after year. we pay for friends to be at the party, year after year. and year after year, we have lost grande amounts of money. one year after eating it in the area of many thousands of dollars, we then donated 5000 dollars to julia butterfly hill's circle of life foundation.
so all of the loss, eventually, turned into an investment in something that has just recently become semi-sustainable.
but every successful business venture endures years of investment. there has to be some way to fund this initial investment if an event is ever going to get off the ground. that is why lio suggested sponsorships, and even seeking a benefactor.
anyway, many many blessings on your endeavors....
and may you all find peace and much love and magic in your community...
~kelly

~

(Lio's Post)

My two pence...

I have been performing at and producing events for many years, and although I don't want to get anyone fired up or upset, I have to agree that asking performers to pay after they have shared their art and spirit is very unusual. I could see how someone who represents musicians would be very offended. I've actually never heard of an event charging performers admission at any event, and as a band leader of a successful group, I would NEVER play an event with such an aesthetic. I'm not being rude to say so, I just feel that musicians should be honored for the gift they bring.

I have been putting on festivals and events for over ten years, and have paid almost every musician that has ever stepped on to our main stage. Most of them were paid quite well, even when our events were humble and starting out. Even the smaller acts on second stages get free passes for them and their families, and access to food, hospitality, etc.

I think the idea that you're giving musicians an "opportunity" to perform is pretty unusual. It doesn't sound right to me, and I don't know any self-respecting artist who would feel good with that. I go to events SPECIFICALLY for the music and performances, as do many, and as a producer I feel honored by the amazing talent that joins us every year. They deserve our utmost respect, and every bit of hospitality we can afford. The energy exchange and trust of positive financial flow is greatly impeded by anything less.

If I were the producer of this event, I would work on a strong business plan, sponsorships, and various other ways to raise money that doesn't include charging those who bring magic to your events, or making them leave. I also can't imagine charging staff members admission. This to me sounds like poor fiscal planning, and a flawed budgetary design. Producers need to balance costs and income and find ways to make them meet so that no one is being taken advantage of in this way.

I wouldn't demonize this man for his stance. If anything I would amend the situation and make it right, and humbly ask him to continue supporting your event and stop whatever negativity is being perpetuated by his very understandable feelings. I have been challenged before about our ethics, and have found that hearing what the person has to say and adjusting is much better for your event than trying to publicly battle someone and prove them wrong.

I don't know any of the parties involved at all, this is completely neutral and unbiased. Best of luck to you all, and to a magical event empowered by trust and mutual respect.

Lio

~

I do feel that I had exhausted my efforts with this group to be heard so after all my work and I saw that on their site I snapped and felt a need to bring it to a public forum. I admit that may have not been the wises chose and I apologize for that. But MWW was already very very well aware of my feelings on this long before this present issue came up. They chose to ignore my past advise and was going to try to charge the performers anyway. Like Kelly saids if you expect to ever have any success with this event you need to be willing to take some risk in investments. As the organizers of this event you are in effect the Promoters. Besides planning and organizing an event, you are expected as Promoters to dig into your own pockets, not your performers, entertainers, or key speakers pockets. If your own pockets aren't deep enough go seek out sponsors with deeper pockets. I have in the past suggested we work harder on finding sponsors. I had suggested PanGaia, NewWitch & Circle magazine for not only advertising but as possible sponsors as well. I was told maybe later when we are bigger. No not later. You ain't going to get bigger without the sponsors.

By the way if you state anywhere in your advertising that your event will have performers of any kind you are using them as a point to sell tickets therefore you are making money off of them.

I onces attempted to put on my first big show in my home town. I financed the whole thing out of my own pockets. I did not have a single helper in the financial area. Being my first big show beyond the local bars & club scene I was treading new waters. When you use a bar or club as your venue many of the licensing, security and other little details are covered by the venue. I rented a large Hall, booked 6 bands. Three which came from a 100 miles away to play for me. I bought several kegs of beer that was going to be sold during the show. I hired a caterer to take care of the bands back stage and many other little things. I bought black security shirts and 5 expensive little walkie talkies with mics that go on your shoulders. 3 for my 3 volunteer bouncers, one for me & my stage manager. I rented the sound system & sound guy. There were several other investments as well. Being my first big show I had a small crew of volunteers who did a lot of the running for me during the planning stages. The Hall I rented required me for insurance purposes to have at least one license security guard on site. One of my volunteers (Who I later learned was running around telling everyone he was my co-promoter) was suppose to be in charge of setting that up. Apparently I was required to have a special event insurance before the security company would supply me with a security guard. There was a deadline to get all this done. The day of the show, with the stage set, the bands ready and close to 500 people outside waiting to pay to come in, there was no security guard & my volunteer who was in charge was no where to be found. Turn out he had not met the dead line to get the insurance in order to secure the security guard. The Venue manager gave me 1 hour to produced a license security guard or I have to tear down and get out even though I had my own personal security team. Me and my main security guy worked frantically on the phone trying to get the insurance to get the guard but it was to late. We had to pack up and get out. I lost close to $8,000 of my own money on that show. I in good faith still paid all my bands. Paid the caterers etc.. Not to mention all the advertising and other stuff. One of the fans really wanted to hear the bands and was a rich kid. He called his dad and ask if he could throw a party on their ranch for the bands. He agreed. 2 of the bands were tired from all the drama and drove back to LA. The rest were like why not. I reward the folks who been waiting for hours outside by telling them that the show was moving up to a ranch up on San Marcus Pass and that it would be free. We tore down and moved to the ranch which turned into a hell of a party and I and everyone else got drunk on all the beer I bought. Several times during the evening I had moments during my drunkenness I would begin to cry about all the money I lost & how I had let all the bands and the fans down. People were like cheer up Gypsy, It worked itself out great in the end. And all the bands told me they would play for me anytime. Other than the lost of a lot of money that really really hurt me it did turn out fine & I had gain some very very valuable lessons. That was quite a few years ago & I haven't attempted that stunt again, mainly because I haven't had that kind of money since to do it again. But I have over the years since worked many many Festivals, Shows & Renn Faires and have drilled many of its Promoters & Organizers for advice in the hope of not only trying to pull it off again but to do so on my own plot of land. You see since then I have had a vision of creating a big Pagan style Woodstock that I will call "The Song from the Woods Music Festival". Its been years and years in the planning. I just finally found a buyer for my 10 acres I own in California and that is now in the process of going through. After paying off my new truck the remainder I am looking into investing in a way that I will soon be able to buy or at least put the money down on a larger piece of land up here in Oregon in the hopes of someday making my vision a reality. Not only will I put on my own Festival I will open my land to other Pagan Events organizers for theirs as well. I know how hard it is for Pagans to find venues that are open to us. Since I have moved to Portland I have been struggling to break into the local music scene as a promoter. As a new comer I have had a hard time finding venues but have been very successful in making friends among its musicians. I'm proud to say that close to 90% of the 100+ numbers I have in my iPhone are those of musicians and recently had a close friend who was a promoter here in Portland (has moved to Bend) gave me access to all his venue connection. Basically He told me to use his name when trying to secure a venue for a show and gave me a list of them. He was formerly a promoter for one of Portland's most successful bands that has since moved to Boulder in order to be closer to the string of bands that they play with a lot. He still tours with them as their PR/personal promoter when he is not in Bend.

My point in all of this is I'm quite aware of the time, hard work and money it takes to make these things happen. A lot of these big events folks attend may seem on the outside to be quite successful and they are, but that doesn't mean the promoter or the organizer was successful. The reason why the Event is successful is because the Promoter is willing to bite the bullet on the investment in order to maintain their reputation. When their investment fails to return to them they maintain the rep by holding to the code of Hospitality. If they hope to recover their investment at the next event they need to maintain that reputation so folks will trust them enough to return and perform or work for them again. Making up for the lack of monetary rewards with unselfish Hospitality does that.

As I have said before, in Ancient times even a King would not violate the Bardic Laws of Hospitality (yes even the corrupt kings practices it). If they didn't they would not remain King for long. A Bard would write a satire about that King that they was selfish and their words held a lot of weight believe me. After all a Bard is a Priest and the Celtic people held its Druids/Bards in higher esteem than they did their Kings. The people would not care to be ruled by a openly immoral King (notice I said openly). Anyone who follows a Celtic tradition knows that Hospitality is one of the most important virtues in Celtic spirituality, so much so that it has survived as a very important virtue within Celtic Christianity as you will find if you were to google Celtic Hospitality.

One of the things that bugs the hell out of me is Aliester Crowley's phrase "Do What Thou Wilt, Be It Harm None" which has been tossed around by the Wiccan community as a rebuttal to anyones complaint to them. I'm sick of them telling me statements like "How does that honor the Rede to Harm None??" My answer to that is that I don't cause I'm not Wiccan, I'm Druidic. We have a much different way of looking at morality than they do. We follow for the most part the nine Celic or Druidic Virtues which Hospitality happens to be one of them. Below is the words of a fellow Druid within my Order, Anthony Thompson.

"It may be seen that many neo-pagan, wiccan and witchs, as both groups and individuals follow a simple formula with regard to ethics and morality, summarized as ‘the rede’ and which states; “If it harm none, do as thee will.” However, increasingly it is becoming clear amongst Pagan reconstructionists and revivalists that ancient moral, ethical and codes of law are far more complex, intricate and demanding than this self justifying and liberal statement. There is currently a surge of professionally orientated and academic pagan intelligentsia who are attempting through sound historical research to establish pagan morality and virtue and a working ethical framework to accompany their life, spirituality, relationships, and employment. Small Druid groups such as ‘Ord Draiochta Na Uisnech’ have completely integrated the study and adoption of traditional Celtic morality into their education program. It is recognized that for an individual to be completely whole they must possess an ethical framework, to explore and practice ideals such as honor, honesty, truth and integrity, piety, justice, hospitality, loyalty, and courage."

He saids this on the virtue of Hospitality.

"Hospitality.

Hospitality is perhaps the most significant and important Celtic virtue, the one which actively promotes and sustains a working sense of community. The requirements of hospitality demand that the host be gracious and generous and the guest be appreciative and thankful, for all that we possess are merely gifts in themselves and we are merely conduits of grace and benevolence. It is a common Celtic belief that to give is also to receive, the two go in unison as typified by this Irish proverb:

Ag te a thabharfas sceal chugat tabhar faidh se dha sceal uait (Whoever will bring a story for you, will take two stories from you.)

This indicates that true hospitality is a reciprocal virtue, not one sided or unbalanced. Generosity in this context can take many forms; with words of appreciation, with a contribution of ourselves as labor toward a neighbors household task, as a gift for a significant life commemoration, to provide comfort, warmth and/or food. Often the Celtic notion of hospitality went beyond normal perceptions of reason and law, as in this proverb: Bheirrin cuid oidhche dha ged a bhiodh ceann fir fo achlais (I would give him food and lodging for the night, even if he had a man’s head under his arm.)

In this context I believe that we should behave with courteous manners, and to be the best we can be; a veritable model of a human and present the ideal characteristics that we desire in others. We can never know the true sequence of events in a person’s misfortune and current state, and therefore never judge or condemn. Even if we can never offer anything material, a kind word or a smile may be enough to bolster the confidence of a person who is down. "

In all fairness I myself violated many of those virtue by snapping the way I did and for that I apologize, but that does not change the fact that I hold you accountable for your actions.

On the subject of me accusing MWW of having more vendors than content (workshops/programing)? If you go back and reread my comment I never accused MWW itself. I was making a blanket statement about Pagan Events in general. But truth be told if a Event's organizer/organizers are going to make claims that their event represents the Pagan community then they should represent the whole Pagan community. Just inviting them to attend the Event is not representing them. Last year other than the three workshops/programs on Druidry all the other workshops/programing was geared towards and tailored to the Wiccans and the one step removed Eclectic Pagans who have adopted the Wiccans practice of borrowing from other traditions one step further and dropped the Wiccan label. But its still mainly Wicca. Nothing against Wicca. Its a valid and rich traditions, but they do tend to dominate Pagan events which does not make for an inviting environment to those of other Pagan Traditions. Wiccans dominate so much that long ago the Norse/Asatru took to the practice of not wanting to be called Pagans and prefer Heathen because they don't want to be mistaken as Wiccans. Its come to the point that the words Pagan & Wicca have started being used almost interchangeably. Last year I saw no Norse/Asatru workshops/programming which was surprising considering we had 2 committee members who practice the Norse Traditions. I saw no workshops addressing the Hellenist, the Discordians or Erisians, the Egyptians-Isians-Kemetics, the Hermetics, the Vodouns-Santerians, the Bantu Faiths, the Yorubaians, the Thelemist, the Slavianist, Romuva, Taoist, Shintoism, the Vedic and Hindu traditions (yes they are Pagans) and a hundred other Pagan traditions. Oh and lets not forget the Red Path of the Native Americans themselves. Also I know some Pagan groups were purposely ignored cause some members of the committee decided they were to dark for their likings and felt they did not represent what MWW was about. Really? I thought MWW was about representing all Pagans, including those you aren't comfortable with. If you want to truly represent the whole Pagan community that means stepping outside of your comfort zone and not be shoving the Wiccan Rede down other Traditions throats. The Wiccan Rede is not the MWW Rede unless you want to go back to the name Wiccon.

Also you can't expect them to come to you to ask to do workshops as most of them don't trust Pagan Event organizers since most of them are Wiccans. Also trying to recruit workshop presenters from boards like this will for the most part fail as most of your return responses will most likely come from Wiccans. What you need is someone who is willing to step out of their comfort zone and act as the committee's Pagan Inter-Faith Liaison and actually go out and seek these other traditions. Research them, get to know their tradition a little and what is proper etiquette when dealing with them so you don't accidentally disrespect or insult them. So until you are willing to actually take the time to get to know them and respect them, the vision for a Pagan community will never manifest. You can't focus on their common roots with you and ignore their differences without insulting them. Also not contrary to popular belief do all Pagans have a common root beyond the fact that they call themselves Pagans.

Also some of my harsh complaints are coming from people who message me or talk to me about these things and for one reason or another they are to scared to voice them to the community as a whole. They are probably scared that they will get the Wiccan Rede shoved down their throats. Remember that when someone voices a complaint and you tell them that they aren't following the spirit of the Wiccan Rede that you are making the assumption that they are Wiccans just because they claim to be Pagan. That is both naive and insulting. I do wish they would get some back bone and express to the community what they express to me and not allow me to stick my neck out alone. It makes it look like I'm a lone disgruntled Pagan.

I'll leave it at that till another time when I am cooled off to better respond without biting words.