The Balance

topic posted Wed, April 7, 2004 - 11:40 AM by  Unsubscribed
To All My Relations

I know that with all of the people in this tribe, there are many different paths people are traveling. Especially in this age where "Pagan" can mean a multitude of varying systems of thought and belief. Thankfully, at the least, this means that I'll get a good variety of answers to this issue.

I feel many Pagans have lost the balance between God and Goddess. Modern Pagans, and wiccans in particular, seem very Goddess oriented. Not that God isn't also revered, but I have seen a lot of people focused on Godedess Worship.

Basically, the God and Goddess is our symbol of all that is Divine. The dual nature of Divinity being Masculine and Feminine. The Yin and the Yang. All of the aspects we know of -- Love, Compassion, Strength, Prosperity, Truth, Justice, etc. -- They are all in nature more closeley related to either masculinity or femininity. Understanding that helps us to understand ourselves and see that we too have the same duality as humans. We all have these aspects within us, whether they're strong or weak. We all have both feminine and mascilne nature about us. And no matter how much we can understand this, I still see that a lot of people are not maintaining the balance between God and Goddess.

Is it because of the focus that modern, monotheistic cultures have placed on God? Is this because God has been shoved down our throats in the form of guilt? Are people just sick of the modern interpretations of God? Where has the balance gone? Why are people so centered on Goddess worship and leaving God behind? How do YOU worship God and Goddess? Is this balance important?

Blessings

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  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 12:20 PM
    I worship both the masculine and feminine face of God. I believe as a planet we are shifting into a partnership paradigm where we all acknowledge and honor the fact that each of us has a male and female side. This has been difficult because of the backlash of what you were talking about having GOD as male shoved down our throats and having some feel a need to balance that out of balance energy by shoving him out of the equation and solely acknowledging the Goddess.

    You cannot truly have one without the other, it is all tied to the cycle of life birth death rebirth. They feed each other.

    I am part of what was primarily an order of female priestess's in the beginning which has transformed naturally in the last few years to now include Male priests that we proudly initiated this last fall and it has been a wonderful learning experience not only tapping into the Ancient Priestess/Goddess energy but into the Male/Priest/God energy. It feels powerful and right.

    This is a subject I feel very strongly about as I feel as women and as men we are all wounded from this legacy of shame of BEing that pervades our planet and anything we can do to heal those wounds and stop the poison that invades us and makes trust near impossible I am all for it.

    When I say God in prayer it has no gender to me, it is ALL. When I was hiding out in Lousianna in that Fundy Christian town I could pray with them because I knew my intent.

    there was my obviously 4 or more cents..
    Erin
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 12:27 PM
    This may be a niggling argument, but you should narrow your scope when you refer to pagans. Pagan is defined as something it is not, basically NOT a belief in the god of Abraham. This opens a lot of ground where your concern has no meaning. Pagans include everything from animists to Taoists and the term "pagan" was something ascribed to everyone outside the Abraham god box.

    The same argument might be a concern about emphasis on yin at the expense of yang. Wicca is dominated by the female component because it is a contrast to an imbalance in western society that goes back at least to Roman times. The male figure has had such a dominant role in the way we live our lives in the western world that focus on the female component needs to come forward as a counterbalance.
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 1:05 PM
    >>>>>"Especially in this age where "Pagan" can mean a multitude of varying systems of thought and belief."<<<<<

    Pagan has meant 'differing belief systems' for a LOT LONGER than "this age". In ancient Rome, their religion was Pagan. In ancient Greece, THEIR religion was also Pagan. It was the doctrine of the early Christian church to label them as such. Germanic tribes and the Norse ALSO worshipped Pagan pantheon deities, and MANY only focused on ONE, as Christians today focus on their 'patron saint'. ANY 'earth based religion or philosophy' can be described as Pagan. Pagans tend to have a personal relationship with deity (not needing 20 layers of priests, bishops, cardinals etc. to tell us what OUR gods want from us), and deity tends to not be omnipotent. These are the primary definitives that make a religion or belief structure Pagan in nature.

    >>>>>"Basically, the God and Goddess is our symbol of all that is Divine."<<<<

    Weeeeellllllll, I'm gonna have to disagree with your use of the word "our". YOUR symbol of 'all that is Divine' may well be that, and for Wiccans who discuss "the God and the Goddess" that may be true, but PAGANS AIN'T ALL WICCAN, NOR do we all worship anything that anyone else's doctrine tells 'us' to worship.

    Whether one focuses on the Masculine or the Feminine is a matter of personal choice, either based on experience or faith. For many, there IS no Masculine in their pantheon, or no Feminine. For others, it's a monotheistic world, with either the Feminine or the Masculine being that which affects their world.

    MY experiences are what make me Pagan. I didn't wake up one morning and decide to be Pagan, nor did I EVER look at someone ELSE'S dogma and doctrine (see your quote above) and think "this is what I should believe." I believe what I have seen and experienced. I believe that which I have been unable to deny from my life's wondrous and varied experiences. I realized I was Pagan, when all the pieces fell in place. While I have experienced both Masculine and Feminine, my life has been affected most often and most strongly by the Feminine, leaving me to conclude that, in fact, the Feminine is that to which I should direct my attention. If I refer to Her or She, it's out of respect for that which has brought me great joy and much love in my life, NOT because anyone has ever told me to capitalize the pronoun, although I use the term goddess with a lower case 'g' as the capital G would indicate an omnipotence to me, which is obviously absent.

    Do you have any problem with any of what I've said here, Dub? It occurs to me that you feel that what you 'know' to be true MUST be true for all others, especially when one views your choice of language in the third paragraph of your post. Don't make the mistake that other religionists make that 'what's good for you MUST be what's good for others', OR that 'what you know to be true MUST, in fact, be true.' For me, in my long practice and experience as a Pagan, it CERTAINLY ISN'T!

    Peace to you.

    The Shaman
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      Re: The Balance

      Wed, April 7, 2004 - 2:19 PM
      Hey Shaman. And everyone. Thanks for responding. And of course I don't have a problem with anything any of you have said. Nobody should be intollerant of other's beliefs, and I certainly am not. And you're right, I should have been more specific. When I said "Pagan" I was NOT refering to ALL people other than those who worship the God of Abraham. I should have narrowed that to specifically Wiccan, as well as others who worship God, Goddesss, or both. And I fully understand that cultures before the Christian church labeled them as such, were Pagan in nature. So pleases don't mistake my choice of words for ignorance.

      >>". . .my life has been affected most often and most strongly by the Feminine, leaving me to conclude that, in fact, the Feminine is that to which I should direct my attention"<<
      Thanks for that prospective. I can completely see someone turning to the side that's been most influential within their own lives. Now turning AWAY from God because of the WESTERN systems, I see that as spite for THEIR intollerance. That was the issue I intended to address.

      Glad to hear from you Shaman,
      Be Well


      Queenie,
      I'm glad you mentioned Preistesses/Preists. I know of a lot of women who practice and have seen a lot of imbalance there as well; as though some women prefer to only practice with other women. I've found that within my own circle, we need the prespectives of both men and women and that it really does feel belences having both energies. Would you say that the sense of balance was much different before initiating the men in your group?

      Blessings
      • Re: The Balance

        Wed, April 7, 2004 - 3:04 PM
        totally different. To a certain point only in my perspective it is like existing in a vacuum, and the natural progression of including men and the accessing of Male Mysteries feels healing all around.

        Initially when I began with the original group the idea was that someday someone should create something for Men like what we were experiencing, the connection the circle the reverence and trust and the different levels of initiation (which by the way are sort of writing themselves right now, lol) And actually in this incarnation of the group it was the men that needed to be initiated first and the men that needed the healing first sort of as a way to prepare for the women to come in, in a sense to "hold space" for them to initiate and go through the process. At least that is how it is being guided for us to do.
        I do not discount my time spent totally immersed and focused on Goddess at all, I had a lot of mother issues that were addressed and healed from that process and I had to go through that series of lessons before being able to get where I am now and wouldn't trade it. But as a soul I have always felt strongly that the male aspect is needed. I couldn't explain it till the last few years.

        Male mysteries that are coming through are really interesting and it seems to give the group a balance that is so needed at this time. We have a lot of baggage as women and as men and each step we take to regain balance and healing is creating more healing for all.

        Queenie
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 3:56 PM
    I feel that many 'newbies' are very goddess oriented and don't know that they should also consider male energies, at least that is they way I felt when I arrived in my new spirituality.

    First of all I arrived in my spirituality after 'trying on' different Christian-esque religions. I knew I did not agree with "God The Father" as the only way to worship--and knew women could and should be just as spiritual and had more to give to spirituality than making coffee after the sermon.

    I studied my new found spirituality as much as I could from books and found them to be goddess oriented which was comforting to me because I already knew about women ('cause I am one!) It was not until I got to network with others in my community and learned from others that I re-found that the male energy was just as important as the female. I know I was stunned at a Ritual when they wanted to invite the energy of Dmuzi(sp?) and Demeter.

    Now I am a little wiser and further along in my book studies as well as learning from other people. I am still not totally comfortable inviting the male energies, but I am working on it! :)
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 5:58 PM
    I don't think I've ever been goddess biased. In fact, most of the deities I consider my patrons are male. But then I tend to see the gods as aspects of the divine and I'm attracted to them for their attributes and nature rather than their sexuality.

    I'd say there are only three goddess I feel close to: Kali, Maat, and Bridget (crone, mother, maiden?)

    But there are several gods that I feel close to: Quetzalcoatl, Raven, Loki, Tyr, Thoth, Aegir, Ganesha, Hermes, Heimdall

    They all appeal to me as different aspects of my own personality.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 7:22 PM
    <<<I feel many Pagans have lost the balance between God and Goddess. Modern Pagans, and wiccans in particular, seem very Goddess oriented. Not that God isn't also revered, but I have seen a lot of people focused on Godedess Worship.>>>

    It's kind of odd for me, because I've been undergoing a spiritual revolution within myself. I used to strongly identify with the idea of God/Goddess polarized pairs - Hades & Persephone, Isis & Osiris, Pan & Selene, etc. But lately, I've been moving away from personified deity, male or female, & more into the concepts of animism or pantheism or some combination of both, seeing the Universe & everything in it as simply "Divine", omnisexual, omnipresent, omniscient, aware & alive, a great moving energy made up of a collection of smaller energies... (but when I'm feeling insecure or nervous or just need that more worldly touch, I holler for my Daddy Herne or my Mommy the Serpent Mother...)
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 7, 2004 - 8:42 PM
    >>Modern Pagans, and wiccans in particular, seem very Goddess oriented.<<

    Goddess worship can equate to female empowerment for some. Think of it like spiritual women's lib. We live in a patriarchal society, not everyone is real peachy with that.

    For others it can take the form of a type of rebellion. The Christian bible forbids the worship of the Queen of Heaven (Re: Goddess).

    Yet others worship the Goddess primarily as the "life giver". It is a very powerful thing to nurture life within your body and give birth. A very powerful female thing of course. Many refer to Earth as "The Mother" being a nurturing life giver to us all. For some it's merely a transference of the Mother title to the form of named Goddess. Isis, Diana, Hecate, write your Goddess(s) here ____. The path's earliest adherents worshipped two deities, one of each sex. The Mother Goddess, the birth giver, who brings into existence all life, and the Horned God, a male hunter who died and was resurrected each year. More power was attributed to the Mother that was eternal.

    Goddess worship is believed by some to be an older practice than God worship and thusly more powerful (though the prehistoric Goddess statues have been disputed as faith based in origin by certain "experts"). Some people feel the need to take spirituality back as far as they can get it. Perhaps they believe the closer to the source, the closer they are to the truth.

    I could go on and on with this...

    It all boils down to different strokes for different folks. We all see the world through our own eyes and interpret in our own way. The reasons for why people believe the way they do are as many and varied as you can come up with.

    >>I still see that a lot of people are not maintaining the balance between God and Goddess.<<

    Perhaps Goddess worship is what supplies that individual balance. I believe it is not for us to say or to judge though our own ideas and ideals may be different or we may think we see an imbalance there. What is an imbalance to one resonates perfect harmony to another. :-)
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: The Balance

      Thu, April 8, 2004 - 8:04 AM
      I personally don't subscribe to the wiccan wheel of the year concept that deals with any dance of a god and goddess. Quite frankly I don't limit myself to the idea of there only being two genders, as well as by saying you need a "balance" between male and female makes me think you are implying I need female for balance.
      And I don't.
      Quite frankly I have yet to meet anyone with this yin-yang balance because with every person I meet I feel as though I come into the idea of a different gender. Not to mention the male-female polarity system completley leaves out transgender/transexual/intersex/genderqueer folks and frankly makes the queer world seem somehow inadequate because we are not striving towards this holy balance.
      I personally practice polytheism not duality because I choose to not limit my spectrum to only recogizing two genders as The Divine.
      You happend to hit a cord with me on this one.
      Please note this is not a rant against anyone in particular, just a rant against the dualistic system that perpetuates homophobia and makes the queer pagan community feel as though we are not validated because we do not subscribe to the lithurgy of the wiccan tradition.
      • Re: The Balance

        Thu, April 8, 2004 - 9:13 AM
        I never thought of it like that. In some of us Pagan-folks zeal to be all encompasing and all-loving, and everyone is welcome--I had no idea that their were people that felt like you do. I guess that is why I am here, to learn about other people and gain perspective.

        It makes sense that people that view themselves differently when it comes to gender and draw different distinctions than I do, would feel lost or left out when the Devine is catagorized with gender.

        Thank you David for this perspective. I personally did not take this as a rant but rather a passionate voice that did not want to get lost in the traffic of the thread.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: The Balance

        Thu, April 8, 2004 - 11:08 AM
        <<<Please note this is not a rant against anyone in particular, just a rant against the dualistic system that perpetuates homophobia and makes the queer pagan community feel as though we are not validated because we do not subscribe to the lithurgy of the wiccan tradition.>>>

        I feel for you. Part of my withdrawal from a certain circle of people here in Vegas was because of their less-than-tolerant attitudes about other genders & races. I'd like to put in examples of the things she said, but I'd feel like I was spreading the rhetoric around. Simply because I chose to remain childless put me under a lot of unwanted scrutiny because in that circle, every woman's duty was to "bear a daughted for the Goddess".
        These were the same types of things I was hearing in various fundamental churches of the WesternJudeo Christian God, only with new names added on to the top deity, and it pretty much made me lose my appetite for working in covens or community groups.
        I personally don't feel a person can't have monotheism in their life - if someone wants to worship a single God or a single Goddess, that's fine with me, even if I feel it leaves a lot of potential experience out for them. But it seems to me that monotheistic believers are the first to start pushing their singular deity on other people because their deity is the ONLY ONE, kind of like what happened in Egypt w/the cult of Amon-Ra.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: The Balance

          Thu, April 8, 2004 - 2:37 PM
          Another note on my sentiments on The Wiccan concept of God and Goddess relationship.
          I find it tremendously odd and slightly disturbing to think about a Goddess fucking a God, then giving birth, then mating, thus producing the once again reborn god.

          I get the idea to explain seasonal change. But, what I don't get is using pedophilia to describe the intimate relationship between Gods.

          At least this was the explanation given to me from a british trad. I use to be a part of. A well as part of a two-year wheel of the year class I attended.

          This may or may not be the sentiments from the individuals in this group, but I have heard it a great deal. I guess it is difficult for me to get past the incest because I have a lot of people within My Community that are survivors and this analogy would have deterred them from the beautiful expression that paganism has to offer.

          I am curious if there are other views to describe the relationship between The Wiccan Goddess and God. Do you all look at the incest model? Or is there a completely different analogy that I have totally missed.

          Curious.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: The Balance

            Thu, April 8, 2004 - 5:42 PM
            <<<I find it tremendously odd and slightly disturbing to think about a Goddess fucking a God, then giving birth, then mating, thus producing the once again reborn god.
            I get the idea to explain seasonal change. But, what I don't get is using pedophilia to describe the intimate relationship between Gods.>>>

            I never got a pedophilia angle from the story - I always thought that the timeline ran a little different for Gods & Goddesses - the God in question is the God of the Harvest, the Vine, the Grain - He's born (seeds dropping from flowers) at Winter Solstice while the Goddess (the fallow Earth Herself) is at rest. By the time of Spring Equinox, the God is the Youth (seeds being sown) & the Goddess is fertile again (harrowing the fields), between Beltaine & Lughnasadh He's feeling His oats (the crops are growing) & so is She & They lay together to plant the new seeds of life for the next Winter, between Lughnasadh & Samhain, He's growing old & dying (the Harvest times, depending on what part of the world you were in at the time & which crops were ripe), & She's protecting Her new pregnancy, at Samhain He dies (last harvest) & at Winter Solstice She's popping out a new Solar Child.

            <<<This may or may not be the sentiments from the individuals in this group, but I have heard it a great deal. I guess it is difficult for me to get past the incest because I have a lot of people within My Community that are survivors and this analogy would have deterred them from the beautiful expression that paganism has to offer.>>>

            Also within a historical context - this isn't incest as in abusive harmful incest as we're familiar with, this is referring to interfamilial sovereign marriages. Back in the day, monarchies kept the royal blood in the family, cousins w/cousins, siblings w/siblings, etc. Especially in Egypt, brothers & sisters married regularly, & considering that the deities were usually a mirror for the current ruler or the current form of government, it would be natural that deities would intermarry.
            In modern times, we also have problems w/definitions. When the Western JudeoChristian scriptures were written, "virgin" didn't necessarily mean a woman had a hymen, it meant she was unmarried (the, uh, "virgin" Mary), and "rape" didn't necessarily mean that a person was forcibly taken sexually - it meant they were kidnapped - Hades "rape" of Persephone meant He carried Her off w/out an arranged marriage.

            Now believe me, I'm not condoning incest or rape, and for people who have survived either, I can understand how some of the ancient mythology could make someone's pain all that deeper, but sometimes we have to put aside the modern-day concepts & look at things in the framework of when they were first conceived by our ancestors. Grimms' fairytales, the way they were originally written, were bloody, violent, sexual & read & retold every day to children - but modern research has shown that this kind of graphic imagery could be too much for a young mind to handle, so we "disneyed" up the old tales of murder & mayhem... maybe it's time someone came along & did the same thing for some of the old tales & myths in the Pagan world.
          • Re: The Balance

            Thu, April 8, 2004 - 5:43 PM
            I have never thought of it in those terms. Perhaps it could be made into a movie.

            The idea of making little gods and goddesses is somewhat problematic. I have no idea what the period of gestation would be or if age would influence their sexual potency. If gods and goddesses are immortal and if we assume these randy characters originated in antiquity and the gestation period is similar to a human's, there would be more gods and goddesses than there are people. If there are that many gods and goddesses fooling around with each other it is unlikely that incest would be necessary or desireable. If the God and Goddess are barren - at least in terms of reproducing themselves - the point is moot.

            I think this is a case of trying to project human characteristics on something that does not play by the same rules.

    • Re: The Balance

      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 11:26 PM
      it is the males who must see now that it's better for all of us if they step back and let the GODDESS be in CHARGE / let the Divine Feminine / THE WISE WOMEN do their work . the problem that most have been kinda brainwashed by thousands of years of patriarchal violence ( both males and women ). there are some of us who want a BALANCED , JUST MATRIARCHY ( nothing to do with a 'females vs. males domination ) , the male ego has / and does create all the problems on MOTHER EARTH ( that is , the mind / intellect / reason ) . isn't it time go give priority to the FEMALE / EMOTIONAL / INTUITIVE side in us and totally surrender as children or lovers to THE WILL of THe GREAT GODDESS and let HER do HER SACRED WORK and guide and heal us ?
  • JJ
    JJ
    offline 30

    Re: The Balance

    Thu, April 8, 2004 - 8:21 PM
    I so agree with this post. Let me point out that our society is one of extreme feminine orientation, and that this in turn is a reflection of what energies flow prevalently. How many books, tv shows, marketing angles in general and type of goods available via success in our megalowmart economy relate specifically to female demographics? Also, the finer things are those generally overpriced commoditees such as diamonds, gold and the price of roses which women are trained to covet. This is changing more and more, as men are becoming empowered thru increased unity with their feminine sides, we perhaps find that the man need not be ashamed for who and what he is. We're the ones with the extra chromosome! Is this a curse or a blessing? Decide for yourself. I for one love being a man and having to fill the patterns of this role, though I despise some of the traditional rituals involved in masculine growth, I've come to know it's like fighting the ocean over its waves. The unfortunate truth is that it's simply tough for the fellow who has always been stoic, proud and bold without realizing why. These traits are inherent in all men, but need to be developed beyond the casting of initial glamoury to attract women or to prove oneself better than the other fellow in some way. Be proud, men! Help each other find pride where it's needed!

    Blessings to all XY's. It is time for the god energy to surge more evenly with that of the goddess, in pagan terms. This is our responsability.

    "You miss every shot you never take."

    Wayne Gretzky


    Blezzinz,

    JJ
    • Re: The Balance

      Thu, April 8, 2004 - 8:36 PM
      I don't want to detract from your rant, but males do not have an extra chromasome, they have half a chromasome less than the female. This, of course, does not diminish your observations.

      C.
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        Re: The Balance

        Fri, April 9, 2004 - 7:27 AM
        O.K.
        I get the historical implications we have made upon our own personal versions of history based on archeological evidence, etc.
        But, our current society has different needs.

        And, I must be authentic to the current mind.

        So, I choose to operate under our decided reality.
        • Re: The Balance

          Fri, April 9, 2004 - 7:51 AM
          So, what you are saying is that you don't want to play anymore.

          If you already know the answers, why did you ask?

          The real issue is - Have you been rejected because of your sexual preference within this context? Have others used the duality argument against you on the basis of sexual preference or are you pissed at pagans because of the attitudes in mainstream religion?

          I do not see this issue as being central. Getting wrapped up in a side issue is a waste of your energy and you are distancing yourself from an otherwise accepting society.

          C.
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            Re: The Balance

            Fri, April 9, 2004 - 10:34 AM
            No, not saying I don't wanna play. This is important work.

            Not pissed at Pagans, because I am pagan. I belong to several pagan groups.

            What I am trying to figure out is:
            Why are some Pagans focused on maintaing a balance between Male and Female?

            I am part of Seattle Queer Collective and we formed because of these very issues, so as a ritualist within the community it is important for me to communicate with folks of other traditions, so I can better serve my community.

            By inquiring at the whys of something that makes me uncomfortable it gives me as well as my community an amazing opportunity to look at our shit, and really evalute "the story", as well as to get past our inauthenticites in regards to the dualistic system that we feel has rejected some people.

            As well as I am interested in finding views that work with duality that do not focus on procreation as the intention behind the means.

            And know, I don't know the answers...frankly, it would frighten me to find someone who claims to have all the answers.


            • Re: The Balance

              Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:11 AM
              >>Why are some Pagans focused on maintaing a balance between Male and Female?<<

              The most basic answer is nature. The nature of our own duality, the nature of the animal kingdom, the nature of the dark and light, sun and moon - yadda, yadda, yadda.

              Without the fertile ground and nurturing rain (earth and water representing the feminine) does a seed (representing the masculine) grow? Without the sun's warmth and rays (masculine nurturing) and a respite from the withering heat via the cool moon (feminine nurturing) does the plant thrive? It takes a blending of both for a measure of successful life to form and flourish. (Speaking in a broad sense that is.)

              It's this concept that is so powerful to many. They see the duality of nature and their existence and choose to honor both.
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                Re: The Balance

                Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:25 AM
                Why use male and female to describe parts of nature? Why doesn't the sun just mean "the sun", a seed represent a seed, and so forth.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: The Balance

                  Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:46 AM
                  I find the masculine/feminine interpretations to be less literal than you've been stating and more symbolic and metaphorical. I understand that the Sun is a nuclear reactor, and that the Earth is a planet. But they are sacred living things as well and therefore I revere them as such. The energy of the Sun being interpreted as masculine and the energy of the Earth being interpreted as feminine, they are considered as a God and a Goddess. In my opinion, the most important of all because they both are the two entities that most effectively give life. Without them, life as we know it would not exist.

                  I see the Lunar cycle not as an explination for the seasons, but as a symbol/metaphor and representative of the cycle of life. No matter what your sexual orientation, as a human you are born of a woman and that conception is seeded by man. Now in saying that revering that interpretation perpetuates homophobia, or to say that alternative sexual orientations are not being validated because of this interpretation, I completely disagree with. If one has a problem with sexual orientation, it's simply their problem. But I would not go so far as to say that the God Goddess interpretation contributes to it.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: The Balance

                    Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:58 AM
                    Also, when I say "God" and "Goddess" I don't only relate that to Father Sky and Mother Earth, but to all aspects of the divine. When I consider all of the qualities that adorn us as beings, and adorn all sacred things -- animals, plants, stones, etc. -- I see that each individual aspect can be interperated as either more strongly masculine or feminine. The balance that I try to uphold is the balance of all aspect; truth, justice, compassion, love, honor, strength, respect, etc. These are all aspects we have within us. I use physical focal points such as animals, colors, plants, and stones that carry these aspects to help me to strengthen the same aspects within myself. If I recognize that an aspect is weak within myself, then I try to strengthen it to bring about that balance. Women are inherently more in tough with feminine aspects; love, compassion etc. And men with masculine energies; justice, honor, etc. The balance I strive for is harmony between all of the aspects and realizing that I need the feminine as well as the masculine.
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                      Re: The Balance

                      Fri, April 9, 2004 - 11:59 AM
                      Apologies if any of my thoughts are scrambled or if the grammar is screwy. I'm working.

                      Much Love to you all.
                • Re: The Balance

                  Fri, April 9, 2004 - 12:10 PM
                  I feel that throughout time we (mankind) have endeavored to understand the universe around us. In our efforts to reach that understanding we continuously try to bring an order to the chaos and reach a place of comfortable knowledge where somehow we fit in.

                  We are all born to a mother and a father (biologically that is, not in a role sense). Fellow creatures, male and female, mate to have offspring.

                  Women were connected to the moon via menstruation as women can be observed to operate on the same "cycle". The sun, powerful and bright, soon represented male prowess and strength.

                  Connections made to form a bond with nature and the surrounding world. To reach an understanding and a place of belonging within this sphere of being. To have a harmonious spot within it all. The bond between the natural world and ourselves is an incredibly strong thing for many.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: The Balance

                    Fri, April 9, 2004 - 12:22 PM
                    Thanks for responding to my questions.

                    I work with fairly gender-fluid groups that like to play around with gender.
                    So, having sentiments from the Pagan Community at Large is very important in exploring gender. It would be impossible to discuss gender within the pagan community without getting current feedback.

                    Please understand I am just interested in seeing how you all think. Not trying to say my way of thinking is correct.
                    God's know my practice is not appropriate for most.

                    Ironically enough I am initiated and dedicated to Dionysos and Aphrodite, as well as Temple Prostitue.. Through the Eleusinian Mysteries.

                    Thought of by most as being traditionally male and female.

                    Although, Dionysos worship for me includes gender-bending as well as Aphrodite often appears to me as Hermaphroditic.

                    As well as I always use chaos as a catalyst for raising energy. Not trying to push my system, I thought you all might be interested in knowing the pantheon I come from.


                    Thanks for contributing, I am clearer on my future work.

                    Bright Blessings,
                    David
                    aka Daemon Bloody Silver Moon
                • Re: The Balance

                  Fri, April 9, 2004 - 12:29 PM
                  Why not? Can 2 men have a child? Can 2 womyn? No. Does duality truely inteferr with a queers ways? No. I wish I could remember the book a ex- Bisexual G/F had me read once. It was queers, fags & myths or some or other. My Ex Anna was Bi though in the end we broke up cause she decided she was more Lez than Bi. Whatever thats beside the point. Anna brought to my attention something that had bother me for a long time & Wicca wasn't answering. Later I found that my Tradition "Druidism" is actually historically Gay friendly. Most people look at the Greeks & Romans as being historically gay friendly. Actually they were a little more perverse in that Greeks liked little boys, where as the Romans did too but hid it a little. They were some what flamers the Greeks. They were some what suprise when meeting the manly Celtic Warriors to discover that gayness was not a hedonist sexual lifestyle as it was among them but that bi-sexuality was a natural part of their world. Yes Celtic men were Bi. It was not uncommon when out raiding or warring for fellow warriors to share the sleeping furs & you can find plenty of bullish Bi maiden warriors through out the old Celtic myths & history. Druids were not Dualistic, they were very Polytheistic. We have 100's of Gods & there domain was not gender base. In some parts of the Celtic world the Moon is Male & the Sun Female. True they use male-female deities to explain nature in sexual terms, but never denied same sex practice. In reality & I'm probably going to get scorched for saying this but us Druids do believe in a Trans-Gender higher being. In fact it is the Highest (Not as in Judaic Highest). We call it Imbas/Awen. The Hindus have a word for it you might know. Its called Atman. The very essence of existence. Awen is the Spirit of the Universe itself. Its neither male or female & yet it is both cause the Gods themselves came from it. But I'll save that for another thread. I like to point out that in many Pagan Tradition, they had priest/ess who were ritual crossdressers. There were men who serve as priest to some goddess who were gay & vice versa of priestess who served a gods. The sacred whore priestess were Bi. The Duality thingy is really a Wiccan thing in that it dominates their Tradition (This is not to say its a invalid Trad. Al Paths are valid.) Where as duality is in all the other Pagan Trad, its just not the dominating aspect of them. I was reborn as a Pagan when I was 16 as a Dianic witch. The priestess in my coven called the shots & the god was rarely if at all ever spoken of. My menor (and there has only been really one for me.) Sparrowhawk met me & the first thing she told me was that I was fucked up (her exact words. lol) & took me as her apprentice & introduced the father to me in a whole different light. She also introduced to me that there were many many gods who weren't all 1 God & 1 Goddess but each a powerful seperate entities.

                  Anyway, you might find this link of interest: www.guidancetochangeyourlife.com/u...ml

                  I myself am straight (but not narrow). I am after all a Druid & so in the interest of knowledge and a true desire to understand my gay & lesbian friends have delve deeply into this subject. I've been working for several months on my website & there is a piece I wrote that will be on it about gay-priest & such.

                  Why not excellence?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: The Balance

                    Fri, April 9, 2004 - 12:43 PM
                    Thanks for the link.

                    Yes, I do believe in excellence! Thank You!

                    To be frank, I am not interested at all in child-rearing or even monogomy, or being part of any specific gender.

                    my gender or lack thereof: " a river delta:fluid vs. stagnant."
                    (this response was written by a friend of mine, I loved it...so I have adopted it to describe my orientation and gender.)

                    I am basically doing work that does not redefine dualism, or creates separatism as an inauthentic response. I am very interested in finding common grounds through archetypal expression without relying on gender.

                    The reason for the gender questions is to work with some gender-bending themed rites one of my groups is planning. This issue is ultra-sensitive for them.

                    Through education and reasonable conversation I hope to do the best to provide an intensive transformative experience that is a catalyst for metamorphoses.

                    Thanks! This feedback is excellent!
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: The Balance

                      Sat, April 10, 2004 - 9:16 AM
                      <<I am basically doing work that does not redefine dualism, or creates separatism as an inauthentic response. I am very interested in finding common grounds through archetypal expression without relying on gender.
                      The reason for the gender questions is to work with some gender-bending themed rites one of my groups is planning. This issue is ultra-sensitive for them.
                      Through education and reasonable conversation I hope to do the best to provide an intensive transformative experience that is a catalyst for metamorphoses.>>

                      These sound like some powerful and empowering rituals, and I can tell that they will be beautiful... another word on the emphasis on gender is because of energy work. Even in Eastern traditions, there is a yin & a yang, a light & a dark... humans have this desperate need to anthropomorphize everything in nature to make it more human, easier to understand the archetypes lurking behind the symbolism. Somewhere along the line, males got associated with transmission of energy & females with reception of energy. The Sun transmits, so is therefore male, the earth receives, so is therefore female. The Moon reflects - female, the fire radiates - male. In formalized Wiccan ritual, they try to have people of opposite genders standing next to one another to act as a conduit for the energy that is generated when forming the "cone of power". Now, in Dianic groups, it's all women, or in Satyrian groups it's all men - by logic, one would think that they would be unable to raise a cone of power because there's only either positively-polarized energy or negatively-charged energy... BUT, we are all yin-yang. Some of us women are very forceful & transmissive, some men very receptive and passive. Energy seems to work best in the presence of polarity - opposites, duality. When you take all the historical Grain Gods & sibling deities away, strip away the words male/female/masculine/feminine, remove the humanized identity from the equation, you're left with energy that vibrates on two wavelengths - transmission & reception.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: The Balance

                        Sat, April 10, 2004 - 1:02 PM
                        I generally don't limit myself to light/dark, male and female. I work with concepts of third genders and beyond. So the energy work changes tremendously.
                        I am interested in transcending the pre-conceived concepts of my magicial heritage.
                        Which does give honor to previous generations that have worked to preserve magick. But, gives recoginition and honor to current ideas that may have existed all along.

                        I basically believe we are continually evolving, I don't believe that the ancients had all the answers. Nor do I believe I have all the answers.

                        I am even considering invoking the periodical table.

                        I think Duality can be a good place to start, but I choose to believe in The Possibility that The Universe still has much to be discovered.

                        So, I will continue My Work with reasonable conversations that lead to unreasonable answers.

                        Blessings of Empowerment!
  • Re: The Balance

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 11:07 AM
    I think some people feel the need to overemphasize one gender over the other because they have a deep need for that energy in their lives. It could be because of politics, abuse, repression, a need for stronger gender identity or just because that's how it is for them. I don't see anything 'wrong' with being a God-worshipper or Goddess-worshipper until someone tries to shove it down my throat or tell me I'm wrong for believing what I believe.

    I've found myself slowly but surely moving away from the personification of energies as 'God' or 'Goddess' and more towards a unified Universal Source that is both male and female and neither male/female. I still have moments when I see deities in people, places and things (I've always been drawn to the Mediterranean deities, especially Persephone/Hades & Dionysus/Ariadne and Dionysus especially still pops up unexpectedly, as does Herne) but I think I'm becoming more pantheist than anything. I call 'it' the Great Mystery in my prayers and thoughts (and sometimes out loud when I'm not paying attention & it confuses people I work with) but it doesn't really have a specific image or thought-form to go with it.
  • Re: The Balance

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 3:47 PM
    Hi. I havent been around for a while, but feel the need to add my two cents to this topic.
    First. I'll use pagan to mean non monotheistic religion which has it's roots in pre-christian times. (ven though Wicca is modren, it's beilifs and god/desses developed from westrn pre-christian thought.)
    That being said, The auther of the book "Tales of a Shamens Aprentice" an ethnobotinist from Harverd points out that most Pagan traditions are focused on the balence of the world and keeping the balence is the shamens mai motive. The shamen should help keep the world and the humans into within a ste balence to keep everone helthy. The Balence between farmer and feild, god/desses, and humans and sprits. (NOTE: this is all quoted from memory from High school, I know I've got the bbok name right, its a great read and can be found at Barns-n-Noble. I think is published by penguine.)
    So It's importaint to me to keep my enire life in balence like that. To "rebel" against mainstream religion by focuseing only on one godess is just as bad as disgarding the goddess enirly. Now I am a proud polotheist and belive that you have to chose your pantheon carfully and keep in mind that no god/dess or path is less than or greater than yours. and that you also need to let the"outsiders" know that they are just are alive to you as anyone else. This is all part of keeping that balence.

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