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medicalnewsweek.com/2007/12/...pression/
www.religioscope.com/notes/2...ri_a.htm
Interesting stuff I heard a BBC radio 4 interview early 2006 where a journalist spoke with the Chief Druid of this indigenous, unbroken pagan tradition, though unfortunately it turns out that the guy might have been a fraud (the Druid, not the journalist)
www.religioscope.com/notes/2...ri_a.htm
Interesting stuff I heard a BBC radio 4 interview early 2006 where a journalist spoke with the Chief Druid of this indigenous, unbroken pagan tradition, though unfortunately it turns out that the guy might have been a fraud (the Druid, not the journalist)
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 11:20 PMVery interesting!
Like I have been urging friends to do for years, read Postmodern and Post-Structuralist versions of culture within language....
Culture doesn't die, so to speak, but it can seem nonexistent to the naked mind. ::::laughs:::
Examples:
Brighid as a Saint
Dumb Suppers
Irish Familiar Sayings denoting Sky, Sea, and Land
rip apart the language...and Druidism is right beneath the surface. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 11:28 PMif it aint indigneous european religion it aint paganis if you ask me... in my ultra opinionated opinion...
www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/2810/
theres alot of attention going back into european indigenous tradition as well as land rights nowadays... which is a good thing. colonizers decolononizing...
people of the european diasporas forced modern migrations should take a closer look at their roots IMHO...
european-indigenous-peoples.suite101.com/
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 2:19 PMThere is nothing particularly "European" about Paganism. The peoples of Egypt, Numidia, Ethiopia, Syria, Persia, etc, were all just as Pagan as the Celts were. For that matter, a major sub-group of the Celts lived in Anatolia - in Asia. -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 3:40 PMThe point of the post was not to lay claim to pagansim for the celts or europeans... that would IMO be an absurdity given the theories about indo-european origins... I do think that the apparent presence of an unbroken, unreconstructed pagan tradition within a (semi) european culture is quite exciting though and deserves recognition and support
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 2:44 PMIt, um, IS a fraud.
Anyone who claims to be a druid of an unbroken tradition is full of shit. The keywords to look for are druid and unbroken.
There are NO druidic traditions that have existed unbroken since antiquity. -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 3:37 PMI think (IIRC) that the use of the term "druid" in the broadcast was fairly loose... the point was that here exists an unbroken pagan tradition, currently practiced, including worship of a pantheon of gods and godesses in groves and animal sacrifice
"Unlike in western Europe, paganism among the Mari constitutes an unbroken tradition rather than a New Age construction. Mari anthropologist Nikandr Popov points out that pagan prayer meetings were permitted by decree during the Second World War - with collections being made for the front - and survived subsequent Soviet attempts to suppress them. Today Mari pagans gather together for approximately 20 festivals annually, at which they offer animal sacrifices in specially designated sacred groves. There are now 360 such groves in the republic and around 120 karts (pagan priests), according to one of the claimants to the title of head kart, Aleksei Yakimov." -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 6, 2008 - 5:16 PMWell, sorry, if it ain't a druid, don't call it a druid.
It may not have been the point, but I, for one, have no patience for historical inaccuracy. There IS NO 'loose' definition for Druid, particularly if you are referring to druidry of the Celts. Certain terms, like Pagan, may be capably defined using loose parameters, but the same is not the case for such words as Druid, or Wicca, to use another example.
Use the term druid where it doesn't apply, and I don't care _what_ the "point" is, the person shooting off at the mouth has automatically discredited themselves. -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:35 PMOK, I get your point
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:22 PMThe whole "unbroken" thing is a red herring. There are very few, if any, modern religious traditions that have any kind of "unbroken tradition" behind them.
Most protestant sects, for example, do not even claim to have an "unbroken tradition". They emphatically deny being "ofshoots" of Catholicism - which was the only kind of Christianity in existence for most of European history (except in the East - where there was also "Orthodoxy").
Also, it is common in most religions (and has been throughout human history) to make unsubstantiated claims along these lines. This is part of the game. It is very misleading to come down on Druids as if they were claiming or saying something that isn't claimed and said by many other religions. -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:44 PMI'm not sure in what way you regard it as a red herring... an example of a protestant sect that makes no claim to an unbroken tradition is something of a straw man arguement... as is the commonality of the unsubstatiated claim
Personally, I find the idea that there exists a form of pagan worship that has had a continuous (presumably evolving) historical existence possibly to pre-history (the articles don't make that clear and I haven't been able to find much more yet) exciting from the prospect of discovering more about what our (common human) ancestors practiced from another angle. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 4:02 PMI find it VERY UNLIKELY that such is actually the case. I'd like to see some actual proof that this tradition actually has existed unbroken since it's creation, evolution notwithstanding, and interviewing a guy making a claim is not proof.
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 9:58 AM>> an example of a protestant sect that makes no claim to an unbroken tradition is something of a straw man arguement ... <<
It is far from being a straw man argument. It raises the question of what is the essence of a religion? Is it the real-estate they own - or the people who are on the paid staff - or the details of the ritual regalia?
Protestants, who as a general rule renounce any claim to being a "continuous tradition", nevertheless generally believe that there have always been, since the time of Jesus, people who have taken the essence of Christianity to heart and have lived, more or less, as good Christians. Protestants also generally believe, and rightly so, that throughout the MIddle Ages (that is, prior to the Reformation) there were, here and there, groups of people who gathered in secret to worship outside "the Church". We know from isolated examples that this was the case - from famous groups like the Cathars, to less famous ones like the Family of Love. Protestants often feel that they have a kinship with such groups - without claiming to be directly "continuously" "descended" from them.
Basically the claim is this: the spirit of Christianity lived on according to the Protestant view of European history.
And in exactly the same sense, and to at least the same extent, the spirit of Paganism also lived on.
Presbyterians, Methodists, etc, do not call themselves Neochristians. Nor do constantly apologize about gaps in the "continuity" of their religion.
Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 6:31 PM:::coughing:::
****EVERY**** religion reinvents itself every 15 - 50 years...humans only live today to 70-ish years if lucky, and back in the day in many cultures' humans were lucky to live 40.
Putting Paganism on a different rubris/level of authenticity than other faiths is ridiculous...
Let's all be honest with ourselves and others. It is an important virtue.
It is also important to value anthropological studies and lingual studies in our spiritual reflections... The Borg Mothership, errrrm, I mean Llewellyn (LOL) isn't doing you'all any favors by producing "Pagan" books enmasse that directly contradict scientific findings. (Anthro, Archeo, Linguo, ad infinitum...)
No Pagan tradition is the same as it was 2,000/3000/4000 years ago, but heck we aren't the same kind of humanoids either... We don't spend 70% of the day gathering and hunting food, making crafts and utensils, bowls, tanning leather, making shelter, etc.... Have you deeply thought about why Paganism is Earth-Based, or to put it bluntly, Pastoral?
I guess I have probably gone far tooooooooooooooooooooooo abstract at this point, but maybe a few of you will get it. I point Pagans to Sci-Magazines (online to save trees) all of the time...for an eye opening experience.
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 3:19 AM"Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit."
There is no seperate standard being imposed, at least by me...
One of my closest friends is a Baptist minister... he's also one of the most religously tolerant people I know, but that's by the by... his stated ideal is a spiritual community very much in line the purpose, values and activities of what he understands to be the earliest christian communities... and that is what he spends his life working towards within the community we live in... but he informs his model and his ideal with academic study... he wants to know just how those christians closest to the source of his faith understood their faith and acted upon it (I use faith because it is the word he would use).
Similarly, I want a greater understanding of how my ancestors approached their spirituality. I find myself in a similar though different situation to my baptist friend (interestingly, his religious tolerance went up significantly when he studied the subject academically and realised the flaws of a purely faith based interpretation of the bible and started to correlate it with other historical sources)... We both a looking through a scanner darkly, but he tends to have more historical material to draw on.
I then find myself drawn to records of non-neo practice... not because I do not see myself as aneopagan (I personally have no desire to bring religious practices from 3000 years go into the present) but because it references something at the very core of a pagan world view and I believe that reference point is valuable... so I'm not just interested in a claim that there are pagan practices taking place in an area of Europe where those practices have nver died out and had to have been reconstructed... I'm also interested in what I can learn of the spiritual practices and stories of the Australian aboriginal peoples as a coherent picture of the practices of a civilization rooted in the stone age, for example... call it comparative pagansim if you will
So the original post was never offered in the sense that it should impose different standards on pagans, but as information potentially of interest to some. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 8:07 AMDitto what Taliesin said!
I also happen to be blessed with a non Pagan best friend who was raised as an Orthodox Jew and now is a Reformed Jew... He and I have been friends for 17 years. He truly gives me a glimpse of what I am saying to him through Jewish eyes, and I give him a glimpse of his Judeao beliefs through my eyes... Sometimes in our conversations, I have him half-convinced that Jews are Pagans, and he has me half-convinced that I am from a mysterious 13th tribe. LOL
<segway>
Anyhoooooooooo, lots of problems with the Pagan community at large right now which makes me worried about its future:
separatism ----------> non-sustainable
Pagan events that only cater to 20-something non-parental party-ers ---> non-sustainable
Hey everyone, remember the Mamas, the Elders and the children!!!
XXXOOO to you all!
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 1:38 PMRonald Hutton used to insist that "the Paganism of today has virtually nothing in common with that of the past except the name".
But Hutton has changed his tune over the years. In his "Witches Druids and King Arthur" Hutton admits that modern Paganism (a) "closely resembles", (b) ) is "certainly influenced" by, and (c) "had certain linear connections" with "certain types of religions" that existed 2000 years ago. These "certain types of religions" turn out to be none other than the widespread Hermetic/Neoplatonic teachings and practices of late antiquity.
So people should really stop talking as if Pagan continuity is somehow "disproven". Especially if you are relying on Hutton as your favorite authority. In fact, the more people look at the issue, the more clear it is that modern Paganism, in all of its messiness and complexity, is a continuation of a messy, complex spiritual tradition that really has been around for a loooooong time. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 6:07 PMI don't think anyone honestly has a problem with the idea that the forms of Paganism practiced today are a new amalgamated vision of hints and teases from eras gone by.
I think what bothers people most is when uneducated (or poorly informed) Pagans go out in public & say things that indicate that what we ALL do today is directly linked with what people did thousands of years ago. Much like people who call themselves 'hereditary witches', implying that their family line somehow survived the centuries with their old earth-based spirituality one-hundred-percent intact (and thereby making them somehow 'better' than someone who went through a formalized training process and became an 'initiated witch').
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 11, 2008 - 6:41 PMOne thing I have a problem with is this: 'Paganism, in all of its messiness and complexity, is A continuation of A messy, complex spiritual TRADITION."
Paganism is NOT a religion. Rather, it is an umbrella term for a group of religions, many of which are disparate and unrelated. Various pagan religions may share some common characteristics, but that by itself is not an indication of shared genetics. Talking about Paganism as if it is a single, modern tradition base on a single, ancient one, is fallacious. Wicca is not Asatru. Asatru is not Buddhism. None of the three are Hellenic polytheism. The spiritual tradition of Wicca is not the genetic descendent of the spiritual tradition of the Egyptians. The spiritual traditions of the pre-contact American Indians was not the spiritual tradition of the African peoples of the same time period. Likewise, though markedly similar, the spiritual traditions of the Navajos were not the traditions of the Tsalagis (Cherokees), nor were they the traditions of the Inuits.
Talking about Paganism as if it is a singular tradition is historically inaccurate whether talking about the various religions of two thousand years ago or those in existence today. It is also disrespectful to the cultures which birthed them. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 8:15 PMhey corn define pagan for me or paganism... im curious as to what definition your working with in relating it to other traditions including ones in asia.
the definition i work with is thus,...
"the original meaning of 'pagan' - ' an inhabitant of a particular place' - has encouraged a new focus on locality in modern paganism. A classical pagan was someone who belonged, some one who celebrated where they lived, someone who knew their local shrines, springs, hills, trees and neighbours, and could trace their decent from local ancestors. These pagans lived in both urban and rural places; the important thing was belonging to an area." Graham Harvey, from What Do Pagans Believe.
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:46 AMPerfect reply, Nimbrethil.
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 9:30 AMThe sense in which I have been using the word Pagan is widely accepted among contemporary mainstream scholars. Such scholars include, but are not limited to:
Ramsay MacMullen, author of "Paganism in the Roman Empire":
books.google.com/books
Pierre Chuvin, author of "Chronicle of the Last Pagans":
ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/199...1.02.html
Robin Lane-Fox, author of "Pagans and Christians":
www.amazon.com/Pagans-Chr...pd_bbs_sr_3
G.W. Bowersock, author of "Hellenism in Late Antiquity":
ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/199...1.01.html
Charles W. Hedrick, Jr, author of "History and Silence":
books.google.com/books
James B. Rives, author of "Religion in the Roman Empire":
books.google.com/books
Rowland Smith, author of "Julian's Gods":
books.google.com/books
Edward J. Watts, author of "City and School in Late Antique Athens and Alexandria":
www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10368.html
All of the above scholars share one thing in common: they all approach the non-Christian religious traditions of the ancient world as a coherent phenomenon that can be meaningfully studied and talked about as such. Many of them use the word "Paganism" to label this phenomenon - some prefer "Hellenism". At least one of them, Rives, simply speaks of "Religion" (singular as opposed to plural). -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 10:44 AMPagan literally means Hick...country bumpkin if you will... -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 11:38 AM>> Pagan literally means Hick...country bumpkin if you will... <<
Words have multiple meanings - and those meanings change over time. Everyone knows that.
The word "Pagan" has been used as a religious designation for the last 1700 years - it refers to people who follow the religious traditions that predate Christianity. Everyone knows that, too. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 1:12 AMits true words have many meanings... not all accurate to their etymology however... and i feel personally that the true definition of a word is found in its etymology and i compare all preceding definitions to its original etymology. its a deciding factor to me in how i understand the meaning of a word.
harveys definition is as close an interpretation to the original etymology as i can find that at the same time elucidates the etymology within the context its currently used today.
i disagree with other definitions if they are contrary to this, and feel new words are needed in order to keep communication clear.
we have the ability to create new words and to continue the use of old words instead of muddying old words with new definitions. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 7:20 PMlittle lightning bolt,
The connotative and colloquial definitions are equally accurate definitions of a term as it's denotative use. You're fighting a battle of futility to insist that word meanings stay true to their etymological roots. Language is genetic and changes over time just as do all aspects of human creation. Rather than being forced or unnatural as you seem to think, language shift is an evolutionary trait. I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon, also called Old English, or, better yet, proto-Indo-European, because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change.
The etymological study of language is fascinating as hell and can reveal a lot about our inherent biases and assumptions--for example the root of the modern English term, woman, stems from a word that means 'wife.' But the meanings of words _now_ trumps meanings of words as used in their inception, and no one's personal opinion will change that and make non-denotative expressions of words incorrect. This is why I always roll my eyes at people who go on at length about what words _actually_, _really_ mean based on their original usage. -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:54 AMi here you nimb... though your being a bit patronizing... but i hear you thats a good point... but it doesnt distract me from my feeling that constantly adding definitions onto old words when we have the ability to create new ones just causes unclear communication... we create humpty dumpty words... and put to much water in our wine...
and NOOO i dont wish that we were just speaking ol english...
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Sun, January 20, 2008 - 7:51 AM>> I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon, also called Old English, or, better yet, proto-Indo-European, because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. <<
In fact I am arguing for a very clear case of word change in a very specific sense. The word Pagan has changed from what was a derogatory term 1700 years ago when it was used exclusively by Christians to refer to their religious enemies. Today the term is still used in that sense by Christians, but it is also used as a proud label by self-proclaimed "Pagans" - AND it is used in an objective sense by people who study the history religions.
The one thing that has remained the same in the use of the word Pagan is that the "referent" - the people being referred to - have remained the same: all those who reject the new (to us) religion of Christianity and instead choose to continue to worship the Old Gods.
Other uses of the Latin word "paganus" that may have preceded its use as a religious designation do not tell us anything about its use and meaning in the area of religion.
All together now: "Artemis, Astarte, Athene, Dione, Melusine, Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Diana, Arianrhod, Isis, Brigid...." -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Tue, February 26, 2008 - 5:38 PMBecause of these points and the fact that there seem to be literally as many definitions for "pagan" as there are people identifying as such, lately I've been identifying as a "tree-hugging, dirt worshipping pagan", going so far as to place a definition IN the description of my religious/spiritual beliefs. :-)
I will say that I have first-hand experience that the Christian use of the word "pagan" still quite often connotes "devil-worshipper", since, as my ex-wife and I found when we were openly "pagan" in a small mountain community in California in the 90s (stating such publicly when it came up, and on the walls of my tattoo studio), several of our kids were told their friends weren't allowed to play with them any longer, because- and I'm quoting directly now- "your mommy and daddy are devil worshippers". Of course, these people making such claims did not know us, nor did they care to ask US what we meant. I think this is what they call "righteous indignation". ;-)
According to most academic sources I've found, since the cities in the first millennium became Christianized far faster than the rural areas throughout Europe, those in the Latin-speaking cities used the term "paganus" as a dual-purpose word- meaning BOTH "still holding to older religions" AND "country bumpkin".
So, since I'm both a hillbilly AND holding to certain religious belief pre-dating Christianity, I guess I'm a pagan...... er, tree-hugging dirt worshipper, I mean.
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 5:47 AM"The word "Pagan" has been used as a religious designation for the last 1700 years - it refers to people who follow the religious traditions that predate Christianity. Everyone knows that, too."
For by farthe greater part of those 1700 years, only by the christians... I thought everyone knew that, too ;-p
c'mon... play nice, or the thread gets it -
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Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 9:51 AM>> For by farthe greater part of those 1700 years, only by the christians... I thought everyone knew that, too ;-p <<
But the term is used today, and quite proudly, as a way of "self-identifying". Exhibit A for this, of course, is the name of this tribe!
We know that there were people who rejected Christianity and persisted in worshipping the Old Gods 1700 years ago - and those people were labeled as "Pagans" by the Christians. Today there are people who reject Christianity and worship the Old Gods and call ourselves "Pagan". How are those old Pagans related to us new Pagans?
The question isn't one of the etymology of the word Paganism - it is a question of the "essence" of Paganism. And that essence has not changed:
The Goddesses and Gods haven't changed.
The deep reverence for Nature hasn't changed.
The prominence given to the Divine Feminine hasn't changed.
The view of sexuality itself as something sacred hasn't changed.
The view that everything is connected to everything else and that we can learn to skillfully work with this connectedness in what is known as "magic" hasn't changed.
Even the tendency toward blurring the distinction between religious ritual and festive merry-making hasn't changed.
And not only have these things been retained - they have been deliberately retained.
And what, after all, is the argument based on etymology? How does this etymology tell us anything whatsoever about the Paganism of today, the Paganism of the ancient world, and how the two are related? -
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Unsu...
Re: An Indigenous European paganism
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 6:07 PM:::walks off waving a white flag:::
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